In September 2025, the electro-pop duo Sylvan Esso made headlines with the announcement that it was removing its catalog from Spotify. The world's most popular music streamer wasn't new to criticism, having faced years of scrutiny for its payment structure and boycotts from the likes of Neil Young, who in 2022 accused the service of platforming misinformation. But the temperature changed last year with the revelation that Spotify's then-CEO, Daniel Ek, was a major investor in Helsing, an AI software company that designs military weapons systems.
Beginning that June with the experimental rockers Deerhoof, a wave of prominent indie artists pulled their music, denouncing the use of their work to fund defense tech. Sylvan Esso, made up of married couple Amelia Meath and Nick Sanborn, was arguably the most visible member of that cohort: an established act for over a decade, darlings of public radio and late-night TV, a likeable and media-friendly pair whose Grammy-nominated work was equal parts accessible and unconventional.
A year later, the band has returned to the spotlight, bearing new music and another small bombshell. Ow ∞ (pronounced "ow infinity") is Sylvan Esso's fifth studio album, released on its own label, Psychic Hotline, and created with a huge cast of collaborators at Betty's, Meath and Sanborn's homegrown recording studio in the Triangle region of North Carolina. The album hit stores on Sept. 11. A week later came an Instagram post announcing that Ow ∞, along with the rest of the band's discography, would be back on Spotify beginning Sept. 18.
In a conversation with reporter Brian Burns from NPR member station WUNC in Chapel Hill, N.C., both Meath and Sanborn describe that return as the result of a series of sobering discoveries in their year away from the platform — but also stress how much they learned on the road to this moment. Below is a portion of that conversation; for the complete interview, listen at the audio link or in the NPR Music podcast feed.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Brian Burns, WUNC: About a year ago, you made the announcement that you were removing your catalog from Spotify, citing Daniel Ek's ties to the weapons manufacturer Helsing as the final straw. And now you're back. So talk to me a little bit about the decision to return.
Amelia Meath: First of all, I would like to say that it was such a fascinating exercise to just do the thing that we thought was morally correct. A lot of times in music, you do a lot of looking away.
Nick Sanborn: And in life, I think.
Meath: And in life. I'm really, really proud of the decision that we made to get off of Spotify — and, it just ended up feeling like it was truly unsustainable. Namely, it turns out monopolies are bad. It kind of just touched every aspect of our career.
Sanborn: It became clear that, for us at least, we are not so big that we can escape the reality of the capitalist system. It felt like the right thing to do at the time, and I'm proud that we made it as long as we did. I think I underestimated the amount of one's career that it affects. It was kind of depressing, honestly.
Burns: Talk to me about that. What does it look like from your end as artists, preparing a new album and launching it — how important is Spotify for that? How involved are they?
Meath: Well, this was the thing that really pushed me over the edge: We are putting out our own record, on our own record label. I just want everyone to hear it. And by taking ourselves off of Spotify, we accidentally set up a pretty large barrier for access. Which I wasn't really expecting, because I'm the sort of person where, if I find out that a record has come out that I want to listen to, I will go find it on the internet. [But] a lot of people will go to their chosen streaming service, be like, "Oh, it's not here?" — and then they'll go listen to something else.
Sanborn: It really hits literally everything. It's not just the financial thing — which was a lot of money. I always joke that we're the last middle-class band in the world. It was a significant hit, which I was honored and proud to take. But beyond that, it kind of puts a blanket over everything that you do. And I think that part felt like, "Unless we want to stop having this be our career, or significantly change absolutely everything about the way our job functions, for the time being, this is kind of the only way to do this."
Burns: With that in mind, do you think it is possible for an artist to thrive in this era without their catalog on Spotify?
Meath: I think it's totally possible. I also think, like, we would be fine. It's not something that is making it so that we can no longer be a band, right? That's not the thing. What it is is that I want people to hear our record. And it puts up a pretty significant barrier for that, particularly because we're doing it ourselves. If there were other people pushing it, that would be a different thing. But the fact that we are selling our own product, I do not want to create more barriers for entry for that.
Burns: Do you remember the first instance where you had to step back and say, "Oh gosh, not being on Spotify is going to be trickier than we imagined"?
Meath: It's been like that since the moment that we did it. A year ago. It's been really obvious.
Sanborn: I've been having this thing about protest in general that I've been struggling with. I assume that this is pretty common — in this age of, like, everything being awful — where you go to a protest, or you commit an act of protest, and then, at some point, go home. Sometimes that feels fine — like the thing that we did pushed [something] to happen. And sometimes I get home and I'm like, "Did I do anything at all?" Besides participate in being one side of a narrative that then people get to see themselves in.
When we realized that it was unsustainable to remain off of [Spotify], there's a part of me that kind of felt like, did I do anything at all? And I'm sure the cynical part of myself can feel like I didn't. But I also talk to people every single day for whom it was a thing where they were like, "Yeah, that made me realize, what am I doing?" — and got off of it. And I'm so grateful for that reflection in the people who pay attention to what we're doing. Because there's so many other things I've tried to do within this political world that have felt like, "I did all this and nothing happened."
Burns: What do you think makes a protest successful?
Meath: We were actually just talking about this on the car ride over. I don't know. Particularly in this era in time, where there are two generations above us that spent a lot of time talking about how important protesting is, and congratulating themselves for the success in that — which has slowly revealed itself to really not have been a success in any way that we were told it was. I don't know. But I do know that it made me feel good to do something that I believe in. And I know that it helped — the amount of feedback that I've gotten from people saying, "When you did that, it made me feel like I could do that, too."
Sanborn: I think we all kind of have this feeling in this moment — I'm guessing — that the bad guys are going to win, and there is nothing that you can do about it. But in reality, they just want you to believe there's nothing you can do about it. You can do so many things about it that will ruin their plans. And I think that when something isn't perfect, it gets weaponized against the idea of any action whatsoever. And I just don't want that to be my experience of resistance anymore.
Meath: Me neither.
Sanborn: Because it's so self-defeating. If a single person had told me that this had changed their mind, I think that might feel like it was kind of enough for me.
Burns: The catalog came back on Sept. 18, and the album came out the week before that, Sept. 11. Was that on purpose? Were you trying to learn anything in that week?
Sanborn: Well, it's the year anniversary of us taking it off. For whatever reason, my pride at least wanted to make it a year.
Meath: We also had asked [our] team to release the record without Spotify, and we wanted to deliver on that. It also just felt really good, really interesting, to not participate in the Spotify machine, which can really kind of become the whole story of your rollout.
Sanborn: And we certainly didn't want coming back on to be the story of the record. We just wanted people to hear it and like it for what it was, or not like it for what it was.
Burns: A year ago, when you made the announcement you were removing stuff from Spotify, you obviously were not the only major artist to do that. I'm thinking of King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard, and Godspeed You! Black Emperor, and Deerhoof.
Sanborn: Massive Attack.
Burns: Massive Attack, of course. Were there any conversations between you and these other artists that were making these moves?
Sanborn: Unfortunately, no. I wish that there would be. We have friends who work in the King Gizz camp, so I was kind of hoping we would have more of a thing on that. But also, King Gizz — that is the dream. Like, their career truly has nothing to do with it.
Meath: They've never had Spotify listenership, really, in the same way. They've always been a Bandcamp band.
Sanborn: That's what I mean. They're a massive band who was able to take this stand, and I'm so proud to be mentioned in the same sentence as them about it.
Burns: Let's talk a little bit more about this decision to return to the platform. Was this decision just between the two of you? Do you involve members of your team in these decisions?
Sanborn: I mean, ultimately, it's just the two of us. The team, we ask for input, just to kind of feel out how everyone feels about something. Do you ever do that thing where you ask somebody how they feel, to figure out how you actually feel? There's a little bit of that, because they're all so smart and I love hearing their viewpoints. But also I think they were extremely good, once we had made the decision, at being like, "OK, how do we want to do this? How can we help?" We've asked a lot of them and they've been so wonderful.
Burns: And on that note, for you two — as partners in life as well as music — was there ever a point where you were not on the same page at the same time with this?
Sanborn: Yeah. Everything with our band is a discussion between the two of us, and we disagree about things all the time.
Meath: I think [removing our music] was my idea initially, and it was really easy. Nick was like, "Absolutely." And then as we got more and more into it, I was like, "You know what — we should should put it back." And that is the more complicated of the decisions.
Burns: From your perspective as artists, do you feel like Spotify has changed at all in the last year?
Meath: No, not at all. Not in any way.
Sanborn: They made a hullabaloo about some changes, that I think were nothing.
Meath: It hasn't changed. It's not going to change.
Burns: Well, what advice do you have for other artists who might consider leaving the platform, or somebody starting out and just wondering if they need to be on there in the first place?
Meath: If you like doing anything other than making music, do that. [Laughter] If you can be happy in your life, do something else.
Sanborn: I do think for me, though, one thing we said a lot at the time and I've said a lot since, is that our action was not about convincing other artists to do this. The bar for an artist to do this is extremely high.
Meath: And it's not fair to ask anyone to do.
Sanborn: The penalties are massive. They're financial. Again, they touch everything. So it is extremely difficult, logistically and financially and just conceptually, for an artist to actually remove their stuff from the platform. We were in a lucky position where all three of those things lined up: "Oh, in this one moment, we can actually pull this off for a while." But that is not a thing that other people have the ability to do.
What people do have the ability to do, and is extremely easy, is for people who give Spotify money to stop giving them money. That's easy. You can switch your streaming service in five minutes. Everybody wants to do that for you; that takes almost no effort whatsoever. This always gets framed around, "What do you think other artists should do?" and I'm like, I don't think other artists should have to make this decision that is an extremely difficult one to make.
Meath: And there are only so many ways to make money in this industry.
Burns: I hear a lot about bands that are brand new, that are just starting, relying on Spotify because that's how a lot of touring is booked these days. Is that something that you ever experienced? Is there anything else that the average person might not know about, the way that it affects your career?
Meath: Spotify touches every aspect.
Sanborn: Oh yeah. It's just a ubiquity thing.
Meath: Physical sales, ticket sales.
Burns: Can you imagine an ethically and economically viable streaming service? Do you think that's possible?
Meath: Absolutely. That would be cool. I just would really rather not have my life's work be on a platform that supports robots that can kill people. [Editor's note: NPR reached out to Spotify for comment on Daniel Ek's ties to Helsing. A representative for the company declined to comment for this story.]
Sanborn: And that's the thing: I don't think either of us have a problem with streaming in general. Like, I buy records, [and] I have multiple streaming subscriptions to different places. I think it's absolutely possible for this type of thing to have a sustainable business model for everybody. I just think when one of them is far and away the monopoly of the sector, that's bad for everybody. It's bad for bands, it's bad for consumers, it's just bad for kind of everything. There's a reason we have laws against this. If that got evened out a little bit more? Yahtzee. Like, maybe we can all find a better path forward. They keep us telling us about the magic of the free market — like, I would love to experience some of that magic.
Burns: I imagine you got this question a lot a year ago, but if somebody comes up to you and asks the best way to support you or other musicians, financially and ethically, what do you tell them? What's the best way to support a band you love?
Meath: Well, like with any product, the best way is to buy it. People are like, "How do I support you?" It's like, well, really, all you do is you just actually buy the thing that I'm trying to sell you, right? Please just buy it. And you don't even need to listen to it. Everyone can answer that question for themselves. There's just this chosen … what's the word for when you're an accidental baby? Learned …
Sanborn: Learned incompetence.
Meath: Learned incompetence, yeah. There's a learned incompetence thing, I think, that streaming has accidentally done.
Sanborn: Which just speaks to the monopoly.
Meath: Yeah. Where it's like, "How do I do this?" I mean, you know how to do it. Buy a t-shirt.
Sanborn: A bigger one, though, that I would love to highlight? Because l get it — I get how somebody has the one thing that they use, and if music is not one of the top five focuses of your life, that makes sense.
Meath: It's not a top five focus of most people's lives.
Sanborn: Like, that's so reasonable. But a huge one right now is: Buy a ticket to a show in advance. That is a huge, game-changing thing you can do for a band that you like. Nobody's selling tickets anymore; that is a massive shift in the last five years. If you see that they're coming to your town, buy a ticket before the show.
Everybody, they set their budgets based on presales. They figure out if the tour is going to happen in the first place based on presales. And presales have gone way, way down, even if actual day-of-show numbers are up. I'm getting very inside baseball now, but that's a huge thing for so many bands, especially bands that sell less than 500 tickets a night.
Meath: Also, if anything, it really helps boost people's confidence. And they need that right now, because it's scary to decide to go on tour.
Burns: It seems so expensive right now, on top of everything else.
Meath: It's really, really expensive. It just lets you know that there is some money on the table.
Burns: Final question about the Spotify stuff: I want to ask if you had any concerns about public reaction when you announced that you were returning?
Sanborn: Of course.
Meath: Of course. Like with anything when you actually try to address it, it gives people permission to get angry at you when you make a different decision. But you know what? I think one of the most human and real and honest things you can do in this moment is say that you have changed your mind, and own it.
Sanborn: Or again, just that the act doesn't have to be perfect for it to be impactful. I hope that somebody can take that into the rest of their life — that this does not need to be a pristine diamond of a protest. Just do what you can, and say what you think.
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